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Sunday, September 03, 2006

This Possible Wonder Girl/Robin thing:

In a reply to my last post, Amy Reads brings up the Cassie/Tim thing in Teen Titans which reminded me that I want to blog about that.

See, I hate teenaged romance in comics. I hate teenaged romance pretty much uniformly everywhere. I know it happens in real life, but I'm a cynic, and firmly believe that 99% of those relationships never work past high school (Which is yet another strike against the Dick/Babs relationship for me, I suppose. They have this element, sort of.)

I also hate love triangles. I don't mind when the couple has people outside the relationship that they find attractive, because that happens, but if that person is being portrayed as a true and viable romantic alternative, there are problems with the relationship's core. I think the real problems a relationship faces are internal, not external. It's why I like Scott/Jean actually. Logan was never a viable threat, while the Emma thing is more about Scott himself, the confusion/turmoil left over from Apocalypse and his relationship-sabotaging nature. It's not a man torn between two loves, it's a man who's really fucked up and I appreciate that.

For a similar reason, despite my hate of triangles and teenaged romance, I'm really digging the Cassie/Tim thing going on right now. Probably because it's not being portrayed as anything but fucked up. That kiss was two grieving kids lashing out and grabbing onto a memory the only way they know how. It wasn't about each other, it was about Kon (and honestly, it kind of made me wonder about Tim's actual sexual orientation, as the levels of sublimation in that scene were pretty high).

There's no way this can end well. At all. Except maybe if they're smart enough to ignore the chemistry. But it's comics. Sensibility is NEVER an option in comics. This isn't ending here.

I like screwed up things when they're portrayed as screwed up, and this whole potential relationship is screwed up. But it's definitely interestng.

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  • At September 03, 2006 9:52 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I love what's been going on with Robin and Wonder Girl, too. But, I disagree about it not ending well. I think this is ultimately going to make them better friends and more cohesive team mates. There might be drama in between, but the two have experienced such loss together that it can only strengthen their relationship.

    (and honestly, it kind of made me wonder about Tim's actual sexual orientation, as the levels of sublimation in that scene were pretty high)

    Hee hee...well, you know what they say. ;)

    Actually, an interesting thing here about that. I think the reason why Bruce had to officially adopt Tim and make him his son rather than his ward was another way to deflect talk that they Dynamic Duo might be gay. People would be more squeamish to think of father and son as gay lovers rather than father and ward.

  • At September 03, 2006 10:12 AM, Blogger Diamondrock said…

    Well, I hope I'm at least putting *somewhat* of a spin on the whole "teenage romance" in that project I've been working on. You know the one I mean...

  • At September 03, 2006 10:24 AM, Blogger Amy Reads said…

    (and honestly, it kind of made me wonder about Tim's actual sexual orientation, as the levels of sublimation in that scene were pretty high).

    Yes!!! Me, too!!!

    Okay, that was way too excitable for 9:14 a.m.

    I read those scenes two different ways: 1) the two people closest to the deceased in the world find comfort in each other. It's a story as old as time. 19th-century England had to make *laws* against it (man marrying his dead wife's sister). or 2) They latch on to each other because only they know what it means to love and lose Conner.

    Either way they go (friendship or non-platonic love) with Robin and his relationship with Conner, I'll be highly impressed. Both options are mature and interesting for such a mature, interesting character. Heck, if they go either way with Cassie and Robin, I'll be impressed, too :)

    Final thing: the art of Robin in his "Robin Cave," against the lab equipment? Lovely. Just so expressive and lovely.

  • At September 03, 2006 3:14 PM, Blogger Flidget Jerome said…

    My actual opinion on the pairing involves alot of swearing . . .

    I just, I keep getting the feeling that it's the teen version of "Superman should marry Wonder Woman" and that's the real reason it's happening.

  • At September 03, 2006 4:20 PM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I remember someone somewhere else noted the weird parallel of Mallah and Brain cloning a new body for Brain for their love and Tim cloning Kon a new body for... ?

    As for Tim/Cassie, I agree with fidget. It seemed like it came out of nowhere, since Cassie was really pissed with Tim (also shown in WW #2). It's too melodramatic than geniune, for me. I'm really hoping this doesn't push out Beast Boy and Raven reuniting...

  • At September 04, 2006 12:10 AM, Blogger kalinara said…

    loren: Oh I do think ultimately, the friendship will be stronger. But I think that if they make it a romantic'll get a lot messier before it gets better. :-)

    diamondrock: Yep. ;-)

    amy: I think it'll definitely be interesting!

    flidget: I agree with you really. Which is oddly why I like this right now. Johns is setting up the pairing in a way that makes it painfully obvious it will never work.

    Thus, there won't be a repeat of "Wonder Woman should be with Superman" in this case. Because they'll be pointed at as going: Well, they tried, they failed...too many issues now. :-)

    jlg: I actually thought it seemed more genuine than Beast Boy and Raven honestly.

    With Cassie and Tim, it's supposed to be off and not work, I think.

    Whereas we're supposed to buy Gar and Raven as a couple given everything that went down in the old Trigon issues? I wouldn't necessarily mind the couple if those were addressed, but considering what she'd done to him and others then, I find that romantic relationship *much* harder to swallow. At least not without some addressing of it. :-)

  • At September 04, 2006 2:00 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    Maybe it's because I was a fan of the Gar/Raven couple already, it felt more genuine to me. :)

    Even with all the things Raven's done, I think it's accepted, at least by the Titans, that it all wasn't her fault, being under Trigon's control and influence. She certainly tried to do everything to fight it off. And they wouldn't let her back on the team if they felt there were lingering issues she had to pay for. And I think it's important to note Raven was finally free from Trigon and all that, and with her new body was able to explore her emotions, and Gar was there supporting and caring for her. I kinda wonder if Infinite Crisis and 52 (or editorial mandates to move Gar over to the Doom Patrol) caused the relationship to be cut short, and those issues you mentioned not having a chance to be explored. (And it might not be or fare well in 52 - Johns saying that in Week 21, Infinity Inc. goes up against a "terrible" Titan team of Gar and "a bunch of D-list teenagers that really can't cut it" really really worries me. :( )

    The problem I have with Tim and Cassie is that I never really picked up any sort of attraction they had for each other that would lead to something like that, especially given how pissed off at each other they were, Cassie particularly at how Tim left her out to dry. It is treated like a mistake, but I dunno... I didn't really feel like one they'd believably make, dead Kon or not... I think maybe after Gar/Raven, Kon/Cassie, Tim/Rose, hints of Kid Devil/Rose, it just felt like it was too much.

  • At September 05, 2006 9:42 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    WTF!?! Sense the OYL started they've been building up this Zoanne character in ROBIN! Besides Tim & kor are to close and honorable for that!! And stop messing W/ Tim+Cassie, They've had enough lately,neh? Keep this up & there"ll be 3 "Dick Grayson"s in DCU! Argh!...power ring bitchslaps writers/editors upside the head WHAM!!!

    Sigh much better!) Kal I have to say I do think Tim is bi:)

  • At September 05, 2006 9:59 AM, Anonymous Anonymous said…

    I have to disagree with you about the Scott/Jean thing, kalinara. I feel like the Scott/Jean relationship is only there because the writers want it to still be there - so when reading it, it feels like they're only together because they've always been together and everyone thinks that they should be together. It's the same "high school sweetheart" syndrome, just a bit older.

    Add that to the fact that both Scott and Jean are completely messed up psychologically (in different ways - Scott is a monomaniacal "good soldier" who shows some really bad obsessive tendencies, while Jean is the host to a parasitic "god-entity" that is thousands of years old and has a completely different morality than us), and you end up with a dreadful co-dependent relationship that drags them both down instead of lifting them both up.

    I actually liked that Morrison broke them up - I think I was on the same vibe as him with the relationship. I like the Jean/Logan thing even less than the Scott/Jean thing (especially since it usually plays out with Logan as just shorthand for "bad boy" to counter Scott's "good boy" position, and really Logan would be a lousy partner for Jean too), but I like the matchup of Emma and Scott - it actually worked well. Too bad that seems to be going into the dumper too.

  • At September 05, 2006 3:07 PM, Blogger kalinara said…

    jlg: You've actually hit on why the scene works for me.

    There is no attraction between Cassie and Robin because the scene wasn't about Cassie and Robin.

    Any relationship they have would be more about Kon than either of them. It's horrifically unhealthy, but it's very real. Teenagers...even really stupid things like that when dealing with grief.

    I do have faith that Johns will manage the Raven/Gar issues, but in the end, they're *supposed* to be the more plausible pairing, because they actually want to be together rather than unhealthily using each other in a sense to get their lost one back.

    green: :-) Respect and grief don't always mix. We are dealing with teenagers here. They're irrational, emotional creatures...even Tim.

    jer: Oh, Scott and Jean are very unhealthily co-dependent. It's a relationship I'd be horrified at in real life.

    But in a narrative sense, they're so tied together that really, they're never going to be apart for long.

    Jean's dead, but her mutant power is pretty much resurrection. :-P She's the Phoenix after all.

    It really does say something that it took Scott getting possessed by Apocalypse to shake them enough for this to happen at all.

    It's only a matter of time before they're together again, because that's what they do. It's part of the poetry of the whole thing. She's the one person who can reach him completely. He's the one person that wants/needs/loves every aspect of her. Even when he wanders, it's to either a clone of hers or to a out-spoken, temperamental telepath.

    When written wrong, they're definitely "high school sweetheart" syndrome. But when they're written RIGHT...(Which admittedly is like finding a needle in a city-sized haystack sometimes...though I'd recommend parts of the 90s tv show. They were pretty good about doing quite a few of their best storylines --which are decent but don't quite compare to the comics-- while maintaining an overall sense of the partnership and love between the characters.)...then they're a lot more than that. :-)

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